And Now For Something Completely Machinima

Completely Machinima 5.3 Discussion Topics June 2021

June 24, 2021 Ricky Grove and Phil Rice Season 5 Episode 3
And Now For Something Completely Machinima
Completely Machinima 5.3 Discussion Topics June 2021
Chapters
And Now For Something Completely Machinima
Completely Machinima 5.3 Discussion Topics June 2021
Jun 24, 2021 Season 5 Episode 3
Ricky Grove and Phil Rice

Ricky, Phil, Tracy and Damien discuss engine-independent collaboration tools, as well as methods and concerns for earning revenue with machinima on today's Internet.

Full notes for this episode are available at:
https://completelymachinima.com/2021/06/24/completely-machinima-5-3-discussion-topics-june-2021/

Show Notes Transcript

Ricky, Phil, Tracy and Damien discuss engine-independent collaboration tools, as well as methods and concerns for earning revenue with machinima on today's Internet.

Full notes for this episode are available at:
https://completelymachinima.com/2021/06/24/completely-machinima-5-3-discussion-topics-june-2021/

Phil Rice:

Welcome to And Now For Something Completely Machinima, the podcast about machinima, real time filmmaking and VR. I am your host, Phil, otherwise known as Overman, the z and the s are silent and I'm joined by my co hosts here. Damian Valentine.

Damien Valentine:

Hello

Phil Rice:

Ricky "the paintbrush mustache" Grove.

Ricky Grove:

Very happy to be here today.

Phil Rice:

And Tracy Harwood.

Tracy Harwood:

Hello.

Phil Rice:

Alright, so today we are doing some machinima discussion, just a little bit of group discussion on stuff that's maybe not about a particular film or not about a particular item of news. Just a particular topic that we're interested in. And Ricky came up with these topics this week, I believe. The first one is, we want to discuss some of the new ways that people can collaborate on machinima filmmaking, and kind of compare and contrast those with the filmmaking workflow of original filmmaking. So Ricky, why don't you go ahead and start us off on that?

Ricky Grove:

Sure. Well, what this topic came up because I was thinking about Machinima Omniverse, which was essentially a the Omniverse platform by NVIDIA was essentially a way for them to communicate and collaborate in real time. So for example, if there was a scene that somebody had to do lighting on and somebody else had to bring characters and do some materials, adjustment on them, or frame up a shot, you could have three people working on the same scene at the same time, which was we absolutely unheard of, in the early days of machinima. And at the same time I in reading, Tracy's excellent Pioneers In Machinima book, which is just, it's even better rereading Tracy, it's such a good book

Tracy Harwood:

And Ben.

Ricky Grove:

And Ben, too. Yeah, don't forget, Ben Grussi, who was a part of the making of that. But in rereading it, I went back to a video that you made Phil, about the making of Father Frags Best in which you filmed the guys and yourself with commentary. And I have no idea where that video is now. But I remember watching it in terms of using multiplayer, and chat and conversation, you know, game chat, you'd be in a multi player chat, and the guys would have a microphone and they talk all at the same time. And you were directing the whole thing like a VR director, you'd see today in Unreal. And it made me wonder about, well, how much of that has changed since those early days? Or do we still rely on the same kind of methods for communicating with each other. And I came up with, I still think that multiplayer is an excellent way to collaborate today, especially with the technical improvements in multiplayer for games, and then near universal technology, in games, that the desire to release that multiplayer aspect to a game is just everybody has to do it. So and I began thinking, Well, what are the ways that we communicate today with with collaboration, and we have many, many more tools. To do that the COVID pandemic caused the sort of jump in technology, where you have zoom, you have all of these other Microsoft group, where you can put in a separate window, and you can talk to somebody and work with them. You can share their they can share their screen with you. So say if somebody's working on a problem, and they're trying to either doing a scene in machinima scene and the guy says, Well, I'm having trouble with this part. Then he shows that part and you go, why you have to do this, you have to do that and you can pop back out, you can go in the game. So there are many more ways to communicate today for the machinima filmmaker. And I think that's pretty cool. And I just wonder whether there are so many that I wonder whether many machinima filmmakers are aware of the wide variety of ways to communicate with each other. And that's kind of what I wanted to discuss with you guys.

Phil Rice:

I think one of the more popular ones right now is discord among especially younger gamers, and the reason for that is Discord. A Discord server can serve as a staging area. You know, everyone gets in there from wherever they're at. joins in and discord not only has text chat, but it also has audio chat, a voice chat, that you can set up a channel specifically for that and regulate who gets in there and what not. And many of them will actually stay in the discord audio chat, while firing up their game. Whatever game it is. So even games that don't support anything like that natively Minecraft, for example, Red Dead Redemption two, although, I guess Red Dead online probably has some kind of voice chat thing, but it's not reliable. So yeah, discord ends up being you know that the unifier there for a lot of people because of the combination of text and voice chat easy to share links if you want to send someone a link to join a server or things like that. So that's, that's what a lot of people are using. There's actually the, the main machinima, Reddit subreddit, excuse me, has their own Discord server, that they've been operating for quite some time. It's very active. And some of the categories that they've some of the channels that they've created on their Discord server are specifically related to coordinating. Hey, I need some online actors to come do this scene. Or there's another one when you want to recruit voice talent, and people can submit their voice audition right there through Discord.

Ricky Grove:

Ah,

Phil Rice:

it's it's, it's pretty neat. And that's that's happening a lot. Chantal on the chat. Just Just seconded that he says yeah, we always use Discord when live streaming or filming. So it's, it's, that's that's a super helpful tool there. Yes, there's lots of them. But that seems to be the one that has really, really taken on a life with with gamers and looking at, you know, my son who's very involved in the Minecraft, modding and content creation community. That's how he gets he's got a group of friends and collaborators that he gets on with that are spread out all over the globe. At least one of them's in the UK, others in different parts of the United States. They all hop on Discord. It's like they're in the same room. It's amazing.

Ricky Grove:

Do you remember the early chat was IRC?

Phil Rice:

Yeah, actually, the very first Quake Movies Awards ceremony that I remember, which was administered by Hugh Hancock, and I think Gordon McDonald took place in an IRC chat. I didn't hardly know how to use IRC at the time, I had to learn it. Just to show up there. And I'm glad that I did because that was a year that that Father Frags Best got some recognition. Ben Grussi in the chat? I'm sure he was. He was there, because he's been there for everything. We all know this. But yeah, Discord, Discord is an amazing tool and seems pretty intuitive. The fact that anyone can set up their own server. And that doesn't mean a physical machine. For us old people, I think server I think, a Dell Poweredge you know, with such and such RAID hard drives, no, no, it's just a virtual server, your area to control and brand and set up the rules and make it public or private. They just opened that up. Anyone can do that at any time. And that's awesome.

Ricky Grove:

Yep.

Damien Valentine:

So something I was thinking about, Ricky a couple of weeks ago, you and I use Zencastr, which is the same site that we're using right now to record this show, to record some dialogue that you were requested. For me for my Heir to the Empire series. We will give that a try. And it occurred to me afterwards. Zencastr has this ability where you can load in sound effects, or sound recordings. And I thought, what I could have done is I already had the Grand Admiral Thrawn's dialogue who is the character your character interacts with. I could have loaded that up as into sound clips. And then you could have said your line. And I could have played the sound clip as his response. So you could have bounced off that?

Ricky Grove:

Yes.

Damien Valentine:

I realized it too late because we'd already done the recording. Because of that, suddenly, we should have done. So I wanted to put that out there as an idea of a way to collaborate using this site Zencastr.

Ricky Grove:

Or even better get that actor set up a time where that actor could do it live with us and you can record both scenes.

Phil Rice:

Oh, yeah.

Damien Valentine:

Yeah.

Ricky Grove:

You see, I really liked that because it gave us instant feedback from the director from you. Yeah. Fortunately, it went really well. We didn't have to do too many retakes, but it's really good. If an actor is struggling with a certain part or a certain sequence, that the directors right there. No, no, try it this way. Or, hey, slow down. Let's make this go a little bit easier, take it easy and listen better in that section. I think it's a great way for people to talk to each other and it solves that age old problem of people acting in isolation from each other. Because you lose that interaction. Which I think is essential.

Damien Valentine:

But even if an actor can't make it for some reason, and they get their dialogue in first, you can still use their clips, so the others can interact with it a little bit inspired by the oblique Bioware is a similar system when they're recording dialogue for their video games, because their cast is spread all over the world. So getting everyone together is very difficult with the schedules and locations. So the first person will set the recording will set the tone of the scene and then each following one will have to they get to hear the previous recordings as they're recording their session so they can match it. And they all the actors that are seen talk about it said that really works. And this is why I started Think about this. But you're right, having everyone together in one session, or as many people as you can get in one session is also a great way to do it.

Ricky Grove:

I think so because what happens is is that you forget that that scenes are interactive, that what an actor might give in a certain scene, the other actor could pick up on a pace is often a thing where an actor gets excited, and the other actor picks up on the energy and then continues along, you have to sort of create that when you don't have an artificially in the audio editing portion. By cutting and arranging the rhythm, sometimes slowing an actor down, it would be much better if it was more natural, more realistic. When I worked with all the fellow did the World of Warcraft Jason Choi, when I worked with him, he came over to my apartment. And I worked with the actor for almost like, four sets four Saturdays in a row for several hours, rehearsing the scenes. So by the time we got to the actual recording of it, which we recorded live on microphones there we verse, we not only had all of our lines down, but we were so proficient in what Jason wanted us to do, that the recordings just came out perfectly. That performances were just no wonder that film did so well. Because our work was so enmeshed with each other. You know what I mean? We were able to practice and learn things that that key on each other off and the performance when you separate like that people are end up doing it, they may have a different idea of what the overall story is, or the overall tone. And so they do things in isolation. And then the audio editor or the director has to solve those problems while they're doing the editing. And so I think today, having things like Zencastr, and Discord and the ability to be able to interact faster and more quickly makes for more natural and more fresh performance, I think, than what we had in the old days.

Phil Rice:

Yeah, I agree. Recording studios have actually been they've had a technology for many years to synchronize recordings over a remote. And it involved some very specific hardware requirements that would put it out of range of, you know, normal folks, and a specific ISDN type of connection, almost a point to point thing, actually, if I'm not mistaken. Hugh Hancock who he brought up earlier, he some of the voiceover work that he had done, either for BloodSpell, or for maybe for Death Knight Love Story, I'm not sure. use that technology, he went to a local recording studio in his area, and whoever the actor that he had hired, was in a recording studio somewhere else. And they did some kind of a session that way. Now, that's not something you have to go to a studio for or spend ridiculous amounts of money to do. You can do it right through maybe Discord, you can definitely do it through Zoom. Which I don't think there's anybody listening to this right now that hasn't at least had a taste of Zoom in the past 12 months, Like you said, it's become a ubiquitous. The reason just for those listening to the show, in case you're not familiar with Zencastr, which we will make sure to put a link to that in the show notes here. The reason that we ended up settling on this as a platform is because Zencastr solves a problem that frankly, has been a challenge for multi host podcast or interview recordings for a long, long, long time and that is if I record the interview and you're on the phone with me, your recording is going to sound not very good. You know, it's going to be whatever compressed signal made it through Zoom or Skype or however we're talking and mine'll sound great. Zencastr solves that by locally recording. So we've got four people on this on this call here. And Damien's audio gets recorded to his computer Tracy's to hers Ricky's to his. So it's not dependent on the connection. So those of you tuning in on stream, stuff's dropping out from time to time, quite frankly, that happens sometimes when we're recording it, even when we're not live streaming it. But the Zencastr audio is captured locally. So generally speaking, those drops and gaps, don't show up in that audio

Ricky Grove:

in a WAV format too

Phil Rice:

Yep, if you get the paid version of Zencastr, it records in high quality, basically, lossless WAV. And then how it works is, once we finish our session, Zencastr, this plugin, basically in the browser, sends that locally recorded audio to some central repository, so that the host can take it and then mix, lay it into a mix and do something with it. There is a free version of Zencastr, that still available, once COVID is completely in the rearview mirror, they probably won't be doing it for free anymore. But right now, as of today, even, you can still go and do a free Zencastr account and experiment with this yourself if you ever wanted to. Like Damian said do some voiceover recordings. Mind you the free version only records in mp3. So if you really want the high quality WAV that only comes with the paid version. But if you just if you just want a video conference software that can record very easily. This is a way to do it. And I don't think Zoom has a completely free offering. They have like a free trial now. So Zoom has recording capability as well. But I don't think they do it losslessly. So just wanted to get that out there. We've all been become familiar with Zencastr over these past months with the show, but it's not a name that I think is widely known outside a podcast creation community. So just want to let folks know about that.

Tracy Harwood:

Lots of other potential uses for it I think, what what I wanted to throw in the mix here is the collaboration tools outside of the actual performance side of it. And you know, the the the writing, the shared writing tools, the shed, preparation tools, all of which would not have existed back in the day. And the one that we use for preparing for the show is Milanote, which seems to me a great tool where we can all all kind of asynchronously while and potentially synchronously collaborate in preparing the outline for the show and the content of the show. And, you know, adding our notes and what have you to it, but they're not tools that I've seen before. Really, I think they're very, very clever tools, mix media that you can add to it. So also very interesting. So it's not quite a Google Docs, where you have to drop links and what have you, and you can actually drop creative content into it as well.

Phil Rice:

Yeah, tool like Milanote would be, it would be hugely helpful for a team that's collaborating on production.

Tracy Harwood:

Yeah, so I think those are new sorts of tools too really, the only thing I was going to say is, you know, there are now so many different types of collaboration tools, that I think the thing that you, you do have to be aware of are things like, you know, pick tools that are easy to use, which is an obvious kind of thing, but there are a lot of them that are designed for very specific types of, you know, user which are not necessarily straightforward. For quality of production, look at the T's and C's. But also the privacy options on those kinds of content aspects. And also cloud use and how compatible that the the data is that you put in these collaboration tools to be ported out into other types of tools. Those to me seems seem to be the key things because you can you can pretty much mix anything with anything with the with the breadth of stuff that there is out there. But the smart thing to be some some things you've got to watch for I think, yep.

Ricky Grove:

Yeah, they the movement towards two things the virtual worker was already happening before the pandemic, the pandemic just put it, vaulted it forward. And they come competitive, quality of cloud based interaction, not only creatively but business wise, the tools that people need for small teams to work in an office environment, all of these things have been progressing like crazy, the pandemic just pushed higher. And there's a lot of competition. And there's a lot of people who don't really have much of a moral focus on what they're doing. They're just trying to get your money. So Tracy's advice is really good, be smart, make some investment and time to explore what the elements and the ttoc is, before you make a decision, we looked at quite a variety of recording options. Until we came up with Zencastr and all of us looked at it, Phil, in particular, took a deep dive and said, he thinks this is the best that it has turned out to be a really excellent platform for us.

Tracy Harwood:

Yeah, I mean, that is to say on Zencastr, so the other thing is, when we produce our show notes from this, we can write and say this is this is compatible with the the record the Otter AI, which is, which is brilliant. So we produce those fairly automatically. With with a with an integrated tool there. Albeit we, you know, we obviously have to do quite a bit of checks on those, but I quite liked the fact that you can match these tools up, it's really quite useful.

Phil Rice:

Oh, yeah, it's otter.ai. I believe is the website, and it's remarkably accurate.

Ricky Grove:

About 90%, I'd say 90, 95. But the but the things that doesn't get right are oftentimes hilarious. You know, as I'm going through, you know, fixing and cleaning, some of the things that says are just mind bogglingly absurd. They almost make you want to use it as dialogue in some scene.

Phil Rice:

All right. So let's, there, that topic actually feels like one that we should plan on revisiting in the future, because there's, this really has been a year of explosion of print proliferation of those types of tools. And I think there's always going to be new things that will help us all be more efficient with with what we're trying to do. Let's talk a little bit real briefly about the legal status of machinima at present. And in particular, you know, how there are some different revenue earning possibilities that have emerged in the in the recent years here, you know, YouTube ad revenue, Patreon. You know, what are the legal ramifications for machinima filmmakers, if they want to, you know, try and earn money on what they're doing,

Damien Valentine:

One I found was along the Patreon line is Kofi, which is K-O-F-I. And the idea is, is that creators can say, Well, if you like what I do, you can buy me a coffee. So you're not actually directly funding or paying for the project. You're just saying why like we do for coffee. I don't know how that would hold up in court, if ever came to that. But it kind of feels like it may be a way to stick around making money off someone else's property because you're not directly making money off the property, you just saying. You can buy me a coffee if you like. It's not really any different from if I follow through that with you guys. I might say I'm going to buy you guys a drink. It doesn't have to really anything to do with our show. It's just being nice to each other. Again, I don't know how well that would hold up legally. But that's something I found. It works quite nicely for my Star Wars project at least so far.

Tracy Harwood:

I had a look at some of the stuff that's been crowdsource through Patreon in terms because it's a platform for for creators, so it's sort of batched itself and I kind of wanted to see if there were any machinima creators on there. I was surprised there are quite a few 100 hundreds, I'd say of content creators, listing their project some as machinima, some as film some as virtual film, some as animation and some simply calling themselves content creators. But what what they're doing isn't saying fund the film as such, they they've got subscription models to providing aspects of the production so you can become almost like a bronze silver or gold member subscriber to that person and some of them seem to be generating, you know, five 600 quid a month from 100 plus patrons, and through this kind of subscription service where you know, people are donating between $1 and $15 per month per patron kind of thing. And I thought what was quite interesting was, was how the content then is being made available. And as you know, they seem to be not using YouTube as the as the distribution channel here, they're using Patreon itself as the distribution channel and several months subscription money is, is also going to, I saw a couple that were using it to pay for server space, then three $400 a month, they seem to suggest for the content that they were creating. I don't know how successful it is don't know if it's a kind of a mega trend. Some are clearly supplementing their Patreon channel with their Discord server as well, which is also seems to be a kind of emerging trend. But clearly what's happening is they are sidestepping, YouTube, which I think is an interesting strategic development That sure is now like I said, I don't know if they're able to really make money out of this, I didn't see an awful lot of evidence of huge amounts of money being made. But you know, 500 bucks, a month isn't a substantial amount of money in my view, but a machinima creator or content creator. Yeah, interesting one, I thought not not really one I paid an awful lot of attention to, until until they sort of came up as a discussion topic. But maybe that's something to have a look at. If you're, you know, if you're a regular content producer, maybe that's what happened to the machinima creators when they got kicked off. You know, the channel partnership strategy that folded a couple of years ago, maybe that's, that's why they're looking at options away from YouTube, which you know, who could blame them for it really interesting,

Ricky Grove:

interesting. Damien, do you monetize any of your machinima videos on YouTube?

Damien Valentine:

I monetize the ones that I own, like my own Chronicles of Humanity and stuff like that. I don't feel brave enough to try risking it with the Star Wars ones. For obvious reasons. But I do have that that Kofi donation thing. It does appear at the end of each video. And I'll put it in in the description underneath as well.

Ricky Grove:

It seems to me that it's the intellectual property aspects of machinima has always been a puzzle, right from the very beginning from when quake two said you can't mod the engine. And everybody went, What the hell, you know, and they jumped over to another engine, you know, I think it's split into two, two directions. One is the traditional game based machinima filmmaker is still producing films based on an intellectual property of somebody else. And they're still considered derivative works. So whatever Khan Khan, whatever EULA is on that game is what you have to rely on. And in many ways, many of the game producers, if they really wanted to, they could bring people to court and sue them, if they saw that they were suddenly selling them and selling DVDs and all this stuff, but they haven't. Because they realize that it's a PR element, though that that's one of the things that the positive side that we thank you for, and other filmmakers, Paul Marino for showing how popular machinima can be and how it feeds back into the sales of the game. And that's I think that's how many game companies look at machinima as a PR element of their organization. So in that sense, since most are going to be trying to make a lot of money, even the small amount of profit they get from ad revenue on YouTube is not going to dent the market. It's only when something becomes hugely popular, like Male Restroom Etiquette. And they ask you to go on Johnny Carson show. And you suddenly realize, Ah, well, this is big leagues. And so they're gonna deny you the permission, which is what happened to Phil, which is a shame, you know, and then the other avenue that they're going down is those Unity and Unreal, game engines, not games. They'll give you permission to sell anything you want from the game which is free up to $100,000 once you make go past $100,000, you have to pay a percentage of the profit. Now most of that is geared towards game makers, but it also applies to machinima filmmakers as well. When you when you buy content from their library, the content comes with a commercial element. You buy the contract to do that. So in a way, even though it really isn't traditional machinima, it's a much better way to go for the legal aspects. You know what I mean? Especially if you want to make your machinima, a profit based activity. So I think those are the two directions. But essentially, nothing has really changed legally, in terms of the derivative content. It's just that game makers and big companies realize that that machinima can promote their engine. When I had my interview with Dane Johnston for Nvidia, one of the things I asked him about, because if you go into omniverse, you see this huge 30 licenses list all the way to the left. I mean, it's like 30 of them all in legal ease. So I asked him, I said, What the hell is that all about? What's the legal status of stuff? And he says, you know, I'm really glad you asked that. Because although we want it to be like traditional machinima, we haven't really made a decision. He says, it's going to be like Creative Commons. And as long as you don't make money out of it, you're okay to use it as long as you give attribution. And I think that's a fair thing to do, especially for a company like NVIDIA. And honest people, they can work with that.

Tracy Harwood:

So how does that work then with the with something like a YouTube model where you make money through advertising associated with your content? I mean, my view with that sort of stuff is it's, I mean, so one of the one of the films we had in our pick this month, was littered with adverts, and it's very disruptive to your Yeah, viewing experience, unless you're prepared to pay the, you know, the, the sub to, you know, read YouTube or whatever it's called. But, but it's, you know, really, and truthfully, from what I can see, as a machinima creator, unless you've got millions of followers, you're not going to make enough out of this process to make it worth the effort. And you have to have 1000s 1000s of viewers. And, you know, from what I can see, on average, the YouTube channel, when you do have those 1000s, you can receive sort of $18 per 1000 views, which equates roughly to approximately three to $5 per 1000 video views.

Damien Valentine:

So with YouTube, you can't actually enable adverts until you reach 10,000 subscribers. So if you don't have 10,000 subscribers, forget it. You can't even turn it on. Once you turn it on, you get a control panel for each video, which lets you choose which kind of adverts you want to be. So there could be just little pictures that show up on the side or underneath the bottom of the video. Or you can have pre roll adverts, which are the ones that play for your video starts. And then you get the mid roll ones, which are the ones that will interrupt your video. I personally turn those ones off, because I don't want people to have the experience of watching my videos interrupted by someone else's product. I hate it when I see it in other people's videos. I don't want to re subject my fans to that as well. I don't mind the ones on the side. I don't mind the ones before. And you can the ones before you have the option of setting if the ones that you can skip or can't skip, I always make sure that once you can skip so that if people don't want to watch the output, they can press the skip button and get straight into my video.

Tracy Harwood:

Do you actually make money out of doing it though?

Damien Valentine:

Not a lot, no.

Tracy Harwood:

Is it worth it?

Damien Valentine:

Well, it's better than not making any money. So I've made since I was able to add enable adverts, I've made a few hundred dollars, I would like to split that up with the people who have made the videos with me like the voice actors, but when I worked out how much that would divide into it feels really insulting to give someone $5 so I'm waiting for it to build up and then I'll split it up.

Tracy Harwood:

has coffee, isn't it? That's what

Damien Valentine:

someone I think, worked out someone would have been given 50 cents and I thought no, I'm not gonna give them. So, wait, so it builds up. Give them a sensible amount, even if it takes a while.

Tracy Harwood:

Phil, have you got comments on this? I mean, this is your bag. Really?

Damien Valentine:

We've lost Phil's sound.

Phil Rice:

I guess it would help if I unmute myself. I was typing something to queue it up for the chat and it didn't want it to be all... okay, well I'm sure that as well, is a topic that we will, we will revisit it has always been the question that creeps in, to do it or not? And if so, how to do it without getting in trouble?

Tracy Harwood:

I was gonna say I had a look at whether there are other options. And I don't know if you guys have seen Amazon Video Direct?

Damien Valentine:

I tried that.

Tracy Harwood:

Well, it's it, you know, I would have said maybe that would be an option for shorts creators, because, you know, you could seemingly upload content for subscribers to you know, view at their at their sort of leisure. However, it was shut down in February this year, with kind of no clear indication of whether or not it's going to be opened up again. But what what I kind of picked up from that as an option was that people that were using it were at least getting some royalties even, even, you know, slightly more, I think, then from YouTube, where you know, where the observation is getting very little out of YouTube and decreasing kind of thing.

Damien Valentine:

I did use it. When it first launched, I put my Chronicles of Humanity videos on there. And I checked it a few days later. And I've made how much and then what is based on views per minute. But what Amazon have been doing very sneakily is lowering the percentage you get to the point that I was, again, making a handful of dollars per couple of months, and it's not worth it. Yeah, of course. And the the Amazon audience are not very forgiving of the quality of machinima. I was getting a lot of really nasty comments. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ricky Grove:

My last thought on this is that I think that, and it's just my personal philosophy. I think when money enters a group effort, it changes the dynamic of it. It changes the psychology of it, which is why I got into machinima in the first place for free. I wanted to offer my talents. I wanted to work with people for free, because that meant that I was doing it because I wanted to do it. I wasn't doing it because I was required to do it like a job. And I think that's part of the reason why most machinima filmmakers are not going to be interested in profit. I think the safe way to do it is like with Damien. You know, do a small amount, and YouTube or possibly the methods that you were talking about Tracy, but essentially, none of that interests me. I don't want to make money on it. I'm doing it because I love to do it.

Tracy Harwood:

Yeah. Fair enough.

Damien Valentine:

Yeah.

Phil Rice:

All right. Well, that that wraps our discussion for this week. I'll remind our listeners one more time that we crave your feedback and would love to hear from you to help direct the the future content of this show. All the methods for contacting us are on our website, which is completely machinima.com. Just click on the top the top item in the menu at the top and that will show you all the methods that you can use to get in touch with us email text. Mysterious reverb chat voicemail. Who's going to be the first on that? dun dun dun and Discord. Just Just mind the crickets. All right. Thank you to my co hosts. Let me see what order Did I say your names and last time I'm trying. Let's start with Tracy, Ricky and Damien. Thank you all. This has been a pleasure as usual.

Ricky Grove:

Same I love talking to you guys.

Damien Valentine:

Yeah, likewise, can't wait for next time.

Tracy Harwood:

Absolutely. Looking forward to it.